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Post by blacky on Sept 17, 2009 2:53:08 GMT 10
Touchy subject you have here concrete! I like it! I dont have the answer for you though! I have always felt in my own opinion that the numbers have been over exagerated but to give a proper answer this is something that I will have to look into further!
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Post by dlslith on Sept 17, 2009 8:19:06 GMT 10
Were there more camps than this? Also were many killed beforehand that could add to the total? Yes touchy subject, but a good one
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Post by theshee on Sept 17, 2009 9:09:56 GMT 10
6 million is a lot of people... could it have been more though??? Didn't the Nazis keep detailed paperwork? I dont know but I'm interested in your views concrete.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 17, 2009 17:24:46 GMT 10
For years, I have always wondered about something. Honestly. I don't say this lightly. It truley worries me that people who question the past can be thrown in prison. Regardless of what I have said, or implied, in the past. I have a feeling, that you will look at it with an open mind. Prove me wrong. If I touch a nerve. too bad. Facts out rule myth. Now. Get ready. Auchwitz-Birkenau 1.1 million Chelmno 152,000 Belzec 434,500 Treblinka 700,00 I could go on. But, I won't. I respect the dead and their decendents. But. 6 million? Didn't happen. Many did, yes. But not 6 million. Now. Am I wrong? Regarding the "go to jail"thing, that has annoyed me for a while, that a man like David Irving could go to jail just for legitimate research. Now I am no fan of Irving, he touches on things I don't like, but he has every right to explore his theory's. Hes not saying it didn't happen, just trying to decipher the numbers. The thing that always got me about the concentration camps, and this maybe connects to the numbers, the photos of the ovens. I would have thought that if you were exterminating 20 000 people a day, an oven that burned one body at a time would be counter productive, so was the story that they shoved bodies in bread ovens and took photos true. So did they kill 6 million, dunno, did they kill lots, yeah sure did, nasty bastards, the hole lot of them, Nazi monsters*. * with the exception of course of that nice Werner Von Braun and his friends who came to America and were completely rehabilitated. ( penemunde, who mentioned penemunde)
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Post by dboyseeker on Sept 17, 2009 22:09:33 GMT 10
Since 1945-46, the most commonly cited figure for the total number of Jews killed has been an estimate of approximately six million. This figure, first given at the Nuremberg Tribunal, has been confirmed again and again by later research.
The Holocaust commemoration center, the Yad Vashem Holocaust Martyrs' and Heroes' Remembrance Authority in Jerusalem, comments:
There is no precise figure for the number of Jews killed in the Holocaust. The figure commonly used is the six million established by the Nuremberg Tribunal in 1946 and repeated later by Adolf Eichmann, a senior SS official. Most research confirms that the number of victims was between five and six million. Early calculations range from 5.1 million (Professor Raul Hilberg) to 5.95 million (Jacob Leschinsky). More recent research, by Professor Yisrael Gutman and Dr. Robert Rozett in the Encyclopedia of the Holocaust, estimates the Jewish losses at 5.59-5.86 million, and a study headed by Dr. Wolfgang Benz presents a range from 5.29-6 million. The main sources for these statistics are comparisons of prewar censuses with postwar censuses and population estimates. Nazi documentation containing partial data on various deportations and murders is also used. We estimate that Yad Vashem currently has somewhat more than four million names of victims that are accessible.
Raul Hilberg, in the third edition of his ground-breaking three-volume work, The Destruction of the European Jews, estimates that 5.1 million Jews died during the Holocaust. This figure includes "over 800,000" who died from "Ghettoization and general privation"; 1,400,000 who were killed in "Open-air shootings"; and "up to 2,900,000" who perished in camps. Hilberg estimates the death toll in Poland at "up to 3,000,000". Hilberg's numbers are generally considered to be a conservative estimate, as they typically include only those deaths for which some records are available, avoiding statistical adjustment. British historian Martin Gilbert used a similar approach in his "Atlas of the Holocaust", but arrived at a number of 5.75 million Jewish victims, since he estimated higher numbers of Jews killed in Russia and other locations.
Lucy S. Dawidowicz used pre-war census figures to estimate that 5.934 million Jews died (see her figures here).
One of the most authoritative German scholars of the Holocaust, Wolfgang Benz of the Technical University of Berlin, cites between 5.3 and 6.2 million Jews killed in Dimension des Völkermords (1991), while Yisrael Gutman and Robert Rozett estimate between 5.59 and 5.86 million Jewish victims in the Encyclopaedia of the Holocaust (1990).
There were about 9.4 million Jews in the territories controlled directly or indirectly by the Nazis. (Some uncertainty arises from the lack of knowledge about how many Jews there were in the Soviet Union). The 6 million killed in the Holocaust thus represent about 64% of these Jews. Of Poland's 3.3 million Jews, over 90 percent were killed. The same proportion were killed in Latvia and Lithuania, but most of Estonia's Jews were evacuated in time. In Czechoslovakia, Greece, the Netherlands and Yugoslavia, over 70 percent were killed. More than 50 percent were killed in Belgium, Hungary and Romania. It is likely that a similar proportion were killed in Belarus and Ukraine, but these figures are less certain. Countries with notably lower proportions of deaths include Bulgaria, Denmark, France, Italy and Norway. Finally, of the 750,000 Jews in Germany and Austria in 1933, only about a quarter survived. Although many German Jews emigrated before 1939, the majority of these fled to Czechoslovakia, France or the Netherlands, from where they were later deported to their deaths.
The number of people killed at the major extermination camps is estimated as follows:
Auschwitz-Birkenau: 1.4 million; Belzec: 500,000; Chelmno: 152,000; Majdanek: 78,000 (figure under review); Maly Trostinets: 65,000; Sobibór: 250,000; and Treblinka: 870,000.
This gives a total of over 3.3 million; of these, 90% are estimated to have been Jews. These seven camps alone thus accounted for half the total number of Jews killed in the entire Nazi Holocaust. Virtually the entire Jewish population of Poland died in these camps.
In addition to those who died in the above extermination camps, at least half a million Jews died in other camps, including the major concentration camps in Germany. These were not extermination camps, but had large numbers of Jewish prisoners at various times, particularly in the last year of the war as the Nazis withdrew from Poland. About a million people died in these camps, and although the proportion of Jews is not known with certainty, it was estimated to be at least 50 percent. Another 800,000 to 1 million Jews were killed by the Einsatzgruppen in the occupied Soviet territories (an approximate figure, since the Einsatzgruppen killings were frequently undocumented). Many more died through execution or of disease and malnutrition in the ghettos of Poland, Belarus, Ukraine, Lithuania, Latvia and Hungary before they could be deported.
For more information, see these links:
www.yadvashem.org/
www.ushmm.org/
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Post by concrete on Sept 17, 2009 22:20:22 GMT 10
In 1990. The official number of deaths at Auschwitz was chaned from 4 million people killed. To 1.1 million. www.chgs.umn.edu/museum/memorials/auschBirkMem/I'd like to add more. But some of the sites I've looked at. I do not want to again. Way too nefarious, probably on a watch list already. I will leave you with two thoughts however. 1. Why would a country fighting a battle on two fronts, waste resourses shipping people around Europe. Just to kill them? 2. According to the Wansee Protocol. 'The final solution' was the forced deportation of people. You can read the whole thing here. www.writing.upenn.edu/~afilreis/Holocaust/wansee-transcript.html
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Post by Aardvaaks on Sept 17, 2009 23:42:45 GMT 10
I think from all the stats its a case of the 'Fog of war' thing and especially with history made by the victorious, however theshee is right the Germans kept meticulous records but this could then have been manipulated for whatever purpose. We may never know the true figure but whatever it was its a tragic waste most people agree. As far as the shipping of people around was concerned that was to dig tunnels, make roads, and work in various projects to help the supposed war effort!
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Post by Deleted on Sept 18, 2009 1:18:43 GMT 10
The thing that really annoyed me was the scientists. If you were a no nothing, follow orders, nazi numb skull, you got hung for war crimes. If you were, say a rocket scientist, who just happened to run a factory where 10s of thousands were worked to death, you won a free trip to america for a new life of a national hero.
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Post by concrete on Sept 18, 2009 1:23:30 GMT 10
'Aye, and theres the rub'
All the documents have been released (the ones we are allowed to see) by the CIA who have kept them for near 50 years. From the sheer amount of them, it would take another 50 to find out just what did happen. But. By making laws against people who question and are not allowed to investigate. Really raises a serious question. What is being hidden, and why?
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Post by Deleted on Sept 18, 2009 1:26:13 GMT 10
'Aye, and theres the rub' All the documents have been released (the ones we are allowed to see) by the CIA who have kept them for near 50 years. From the sheer amount of them, it would take another 50 to find out just what did happen. But. By making laws against people who question and are not allowed to investigate. Really raises a serious question. What is being hidden, and why? It is interesting, are you allowed to investigate all the ukranians and russians that were murdered, or is it just the children of isreal that are tabboo.
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